<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1525</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/18/99 8:44:37 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 18 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1525<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
OT?: Sliders (was Re: Ethnic Confusions)<BR>
Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
Re: OT US Gun Control C**P on TML<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1521<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: The Ship's (bob)cat<BR>
Re: Re Rations<BR>
Re: guns with guns (and more guns)<BR>
Re: back on topic?  was: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
Security Scan was (Mass communication) <BR>
Using old wills for pro-gun control<BR>
Re: Mars exploration<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1522<BR>
Re: Mistranslating the Ten Commandments (was Re: Silly Traveller)<BR>
Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
Re: Sliders (was Re: Ethnic Confusions)<BR>
Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 06:52:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
>> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
>> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
>> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
<BR>
On 12/18/1999 04:30, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Picture a Senate with around 20 new members who would consider<BR>
> Teddy Kennedy to be right wing :) The Republican Party would have<BR>
> to be utterly brain-dead to risk losing that chamber for a couple<BR>
> of generations at least.<BR>
> <BR>
Not only that, we'd have a true multiparty chamber too that would run the<BR>
entire spectrum...Republicans, Democrats, Tories, Liberals and Reform...even<BR>
Ross Pee-rot would actually have a party to go to!<BR>
<BR>
Can you think of something that'll drive the voters here more nuts than<BR>
that? <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 06:57:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: OT?: Sliders (was Re: Ethnic Confusions)<BR>
<BR>
On 12/18/1999 04:33, Richard Martin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, if I get the story line correct, the Ancients distributed Homo<BR>
> around 3-400,000 years ago? If so then it would have been Homo erectus,<BR>
> not Homo habilis or Homo sapiens. The first known populations Homo<BR>
> sapiens, at least by the majority of scholars, were probably around<BR>
> 100,000 to 150,000 years ago (archaic Homo sapiens), probably in South<BR>
> Africa. This would collate with the African Eve theory based on<BR>
> mitochondrial DNA. Indeed, there is more diversity amoung the<BR>
> populations in Africa than between Africa and the rest of the world.<BR>
> <BR>
> However, there is a minority competeing theory called regional evolution<BR>
> put forth that claims that all the regional variation in the human<BR>
> species was due to parallel evolution in diverse, semi-isolated<BR>
> population of Homo Erectus with just enough admixture to keep us all one<BR>
> species.<BR>
> <BR>
> So if one takes the fist theory and grabs a population of at least 1000<BR>
> (the number necessary for sucessful propogation with minimal effects of<BR>
> Founders Syndrome), then they would have of all likely hood come from<BR>
> Africa since this is the only possible viable source of sucessful sub<BR>
> species of Home erectus. However, the second theory would allow for the<BR>
> small phenotypical differences aoung the Human race by because of the<BR>
> regional viablility of Homo erectus, thus they could have been snatched<BR>
> from anywhere H. erectus was found.<BR>
> <BR>
> All of this would, of course, be moot if the Ancients just said to heck<BR>
> with it and introduced their own solutions...<BR>
<BR>
Which brings up an interesting conjecture. Not sure if this is off-topic.<BR>
For anyone who watches Sliders, do the Kromaggs represent an evolved homo<BR>
erectus or something else?  Could it also mean that at least one of the<BR>
human minor races could have evolved into something similar?<BR>
<BR>
This is, of course, assuming that not all forty or so human minor races have<BR>
been catalogued in the OTU. If they have, well, IMO it wouldn't be too hard<BR>
for a ref to come up with some stats.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:58:02 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
<BR>
Richard Martin writes:<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
>Actually, if I get the story line correct, the Ancients distributed Homo<BR>
>around 3-400,000 years ago? <BR>
<BR>
300,000. The whole Ancient period only spans 20,000 years, from ca.<BR>
- -310,000 to -290,000. Some MT publications erroneously introduced the<BR>
figure -400,000, but that is a mistake. <BR>
<BR>
>If so then it would have been Homo erectus, not Homo habilis or Homo <BR>
>sapiens. The first known populations Homo sapiens, at least by the <BR>
>majority of scholars, were probably around 100,000 to 150,000 years ago<BR>
>(archaic Homo sapiens), probably in South Africa. This would collate with <BR>
>the African Eve theory based on mitochondrial DNA. Indeed, there is more<BR>
>diversity amoung the populations in Africa than between Africa and the <BR>
>rest of the world.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately the history of the Traveller universe must have been written<BR>
before this theory achieved currency (or maybe the authors used outdated<BR>
sources). In the TU many descendents of H. antiquitus [my term for whatever<BR>
human subspecies the Ancients collected] are able to interbreed with Homo <BR>
sapiens sapiens. As I understand it, this means that their oldest common<BR>
ancestor, H. antiquitus must have been H. sapiens too. Not necessesarily H. <BR>
sapiens neanderthalensis and certainly not H. sapiens sapiens, but definitely<BR>
H.  sapiens _something_. This may not accord with the current knowledge of<BR>
the Real world, but then, the Traveller universe is not the Real World.<BR>
<BR>
>However, there is a minority competeing theory called regional evolution<BR>
>put forth that claims that all the regional variation in the human<BR>
>species was due to parallel evolution in diverse, semi-isolated<BR>
>population of Homo Erectus with just enough admixture to keep us all one<BR>
>species.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the 'just enough admixture' didn't happen between human populations<BR>
stuck on different planets. In the case of Darrian it didn't even happen<BR>
between the five population groups they were divided into.<BR>
 <BR>
If you insist that the Traveller universe must be just like the Real World,<BR>
I suggest that current scientific theories about the evolution of man are<BR>
wrong.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:44:50 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT US Gun Control C**P on TML<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:45:16 +0000<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>Subject: OT US Gun Control C**P on TML<BR>
><BR>
><RANT><BR>
><BR>
>PLEASE TAKE THIS IRRELEVANT CYCLIC ARGUMENT OFF THE TML!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
></RANT><BR>
><BR>
>That feels better ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
Hear! Hear! Ditto, likewise, I concure.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Old version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
the world will beat a path to your door.<BR>
New version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
some @$*% will build a better mouse.<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:54:45 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1521<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:59:20 -0800<BR>
>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
><BR>
>Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
>> I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA<BR>
and<BR>
>> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
>> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
>> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
><BR>
>ITYM "Organization of North American Nations", or ONAN. See David<BR>
>Foster Wallace's _Infinite_Jest_ for a satiric look at the results.<BR>
><BR>
>Hell, everyone go read _Infinite_Jest_ just so I have someone to<BR>
>talk to.<BR>
><BR>
>- -Russell "ITYM _Infinite_Book_" B<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well Russell I've read it. I can't say that I can wholeheartedly sugest<BR>
it to anybody else though.<BR>
<BR>
It's 1400 pages long including aproximately 200 pages of endnotes.<BR>
(which you do have to read because a large number of them are page<BR>
long sections of plot and charecter.) The book also goes into a lot of<BR>
detail regarding the philosophy of alchoholics annonymous. Reasonably<BR>
well writen and it has a few good laughs but large portions of it are<BR>
about as pleseant as an AA meeting. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to discuss it off list hit me at<BR>
<BR>
daveshayne@msn.com<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Old version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
the world will beat a path to your door.<BR>
New version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
some @$*% will build a better mouse.<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:54:00 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
>> That's funny, I didn't think that Canada had socialized medicine. On the<BR>
>> other hand, having seen the economic hardship that prolonged sickness can,<BR>
>> and more often than not, does bring onto families, I'm far from convinced<BR>
>> that "capitalized medicine" is all that much better.<BR>
>> <BR>
>And Canada's single-payer system is what all the media wants us to look<BR>
>toward for a "better health care system, just like Bill and Hillary. BAD<BR>
>EXAMPLE for Americans! Other countries, such as the Federal Republic of<BR>
>Germany, have a health care system which is a partnership between the<BR>
>government, the providers and the insurers. I have a nephew who will be 9 in<BR>
>January, and he was born in a German hospital (and for now he has dual<BR>
>citizenship), there were some complications in his delivery. He eventually<BR>
>came through OK, but at least his mother (my sister) didn't have to worry<BR>
>about the bills.<BR>
<BR>
And had your sister's experience happened to a Canadian, there'd be no<BR>
difference -- we don't have to worry about the bills either. The biggest<BR>
difference between the health care system here and the one in Germany is<BR>
that here, the patient still has some choice regarding which doctor to <BR>
see. This being the case, I find myself perplexed as to why you'd think<BR>
Canada's system would be a "BAD EXAMPLE" for Americans, then turn around<BR>
and point at Germany as being a good one. Unless for some reason you think<BR>
that we, as patients, shouldn't have the element of choice when it comes<BR>
to our medical care.<BR>
<BR>
Wait, I forgot -- the HMO system in the US also removes the element of<BR>
choice from the patient, so I guess you're used to that already.  :-D<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:19:52 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ship's (bob)cat<BR>
<BR>
automated litterboxes wouldnt be a major deal, we have them now, <BR>
they could be computer controlled in the future easily. in TNE it <BR>
could even be an early sign of virus infestation, when the litterbox<BR>
or dog run spaces the ships pet.<BR>
<BR>
I have a little cat here whos  a mixed maine coon and norwegian <BR>
forest cat, who tilts the scales at nearly 35#, hes been accused of<BR>
being a baby aslan.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow/faf.jpg<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:23:42 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Rations<BR>
<BR>
Memo: To Andy & Dom<BR>
<BR>
Forget about even asking.  I am *not* writing "101 Freshers"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What Doug? your not willing to plunge the depths required for such <BR>
a strange project, we need to find another loo-se canon to write it<BR>
then, I'm feeling kinda flushed about it myself.<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:25:50 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: guns with guns (and more guns)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:25 PM 12/16/99 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>An individual just stands in the cue with the customers, waiting <BR>
>patiently. When it is his turn, he *quietly* says "Ueberfall," that <BR>
>is, "Robbery." The cashier has strict instructions never to risk <BR>
>anything in such a case, so he simply gives the criminal the cash he<BR>
<BR>
>has available. Then the criminal *walks* away from the bank and <BR>
>disappears. Sometimes, customers do not even notice that the bank<BR>
has <BR>
>been robbed, and I am pretty sure that none of those criminals has a<BR>
<BR>
>gun.<BR>
><BR>
>Now drop your usual trigger-easy PCs on a planet where things go<BR>
like <BR>
>this, and have them wonder if they should rob a bank themselves... <BR>
><grin>.<BR>
><BR>
>Btw, this is somewhat nasty, and I apologize for it,  but I asked <BR>
>precisely that to a native austrian, i.e. if it wouldn't be a <BR>
>temptation for some foreigners, let's say americans (or even <BR>
>spaniards like me), to rob a bank if they knew this is the style <BR>
>here. The answer was that that would never happen, because an <BR>
>american could never correctly pronounce "Ueberfall," and hence the <BR>
>cashier would never understand him...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	Except for those of us who spent 7 years in German schools ... each<BR>
year my classmates and I would wait to see how long it took the<BR>
instructor to realize I was an American despite my Bavarian accent<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
(Not that I have any intention of flying to Austria for the purpose<BR>
of committing felonies, mind you ...)<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and<BR>
movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see random<BR>
acts of<BR>
situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:48:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: back on topic?  was: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>> Going OT:  the above is actually influenced by some posts I got on<BR>
another<BR>
>> list, on the topic of gun control!  Apparently, the civil rights movement<BR>
>> in the US, one of the classic "nonviolent" movements, was defended by a<BR>
>> very large proportion of its members possessing guns.  This resulting in<BR>
>> the white hood brigade suffering some very embarrassing setbacks....<BR>
><BR>
>What incident was that?  I can only think of that incident in South<BR>
>Carolina in '82 ('83?) where the guns were distributed overwhelmingly<BR>
>otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I seen to remember reading that there was an incident back in the 50's in<BR>
the North Carolina Mountains, Klan vs. Cherokee. Supposedly the Cherokee,<BR>
being far better shots and better armed, won.   Of course it helped that the<BR>
incident reportedly happened on a moon lit night, all their oponents were<BR>
wearing white sheets, excellent targets, and they had the home court<BR>
advantage.   Does anyone have a citation regarding the truth of this?   I<BR>
seem to remember reading it about it in a Time Magazine article many years<BR>
ago.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:04:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Security Scan was (Mass communication) <BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>> Hey, the last time I was at one of those, I very nearly had to strip<BR>
>> down before they finally conceded that it was the button on my pants<BR>
>> tripping the alarms.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
As an occasional photographer I often travel with an old medium format twin<BR>
lens reflex camera or two.  If you've never seen one they are a rather large<BR>
rectangular box type camera with two lenses on the front.   You focus by<BR>
looking down into a screen on the top.  If they are loaded I always have<BR>
them hand checked.   Airport security invariably checks such cameras by<BR>
looking through the view screen at the top ignoring the fact that they have<BR>
second large film chamber at the bottom... remember it's a "twin lens"<BR>
camera not a single lens reflex.  Such people look but they don't see.  If I<BR>
have the time, an empty camera and there is no line I occasionally educate<BR>
them by removing the lens board and showing them how to check one properly.<BR>
I figure the life I save may be my own.<BR>
<BR>
On the flip side on one occasion I had an officious old biddy open every one<BR>
of the 35 mm plastic film cans I had in the bag, my guess is that she was<BR>
looking for dope.  On a second occasion I had to stop security from opening<BR>
a factory sealed box of unexposed 8 by 10 inch sheet film for one of my<BR>
large format cameras.   I told him he was welcome to break the seal and open<BR>
it if he wanted to but if he did so he bought it and I wanted the twenty<BR>
five bucks up front.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:50:46 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Using old wills for pro-gun control<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/17/99 7:30:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< One of the triggers, sure. But historical data (wills, etc.) shows that US<BR>
 citizens did not care much about guns after the revolution -- circa 1800,<BR>
 militias were in a sorry state, most citizens did not own a working gun,<BR>
 etc.  They cared about the confiscation of weaponry because they were<BR>
 preparing for armed insurrection. >><BR>
<BR>
I'm thinking you want to be real careful about using old wills to decide what <BR>
the common man cared about. <BR>
1. Intestacy laws were common and well understood, will laws were very formal <BR>
and hard to comply with, it took a lawyer in many cases [heck, it still does, <BR>
no matter what those do-it-yourself books say]<BR>
2. Inter vivos gifts of possessions were common, land was the main thing that <BR>
came under the statute of frauds and had to be written out if a different <BR>
outcome from the intestacy laws was desired [of course, gifts to children <BR>
during life back then would count off their share under probate, so they may <BR>
be some value records from court, but not in the wills themselves]<BR>
3. Many other anti-gunners quote British authors commenting about the <BR>
mid-1800s American south, and how violent all the people were, how they would <BR>
fight at the drop of a hat for honor, and how common guns and the use of guns <BR>
was in formal or informal honor duels, and how everyone was armed...which is <BR>
it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Trav Ref: Characters, trying to deal with information overload that we would <BR>
expect the 3I to be, at least along the routes, find a great article/thesis <BR>
about a world on the fringe's culture, based on analysis of old <BR>
shipping/trade/wills/fiction/whatever records...decide they can now make a <BR>
great strategy based on it, and commit themselves to their course of action, <BR>
betting their ship and lives<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:02:19 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Noe <fusilier@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mars exploration<BR>
<BR>
[snip] There's no<BR>
> > >commercial reason to go there.<BR>
> ...<BR>
> > There was no reason to go to the New World either. (Drinking my chocolate<BR>
> > milk, staring at the tobacco ad on the back of the magazine near me...)<BR>
> <BR>
> Ha ha!  That's really good.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Ummn...commerce was the _major_ reason for going. Columbus was trying to<BR>
find a short route to the Spice Islands, remember, and all the gold that<BR>
Marco Polo had written about in far off Cathay.<BR>
<BR>
When the Spanish started bringing gold and silver back to Europe,<BR>
England, the Netherlands, Denmark, and France all decided to get in on<BR>
the goodies.<BR>
<BR>
We'll be in space for good when somebody can make a profit, other than<BR>
selling launch vehicles or comsats.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Noe, in Indianapolis<BR>
fusilier@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:12:37 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1522<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/18/99 12:21:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< In mail you write:<BR>
 <BR>
 > On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
 ><BR>
 >> Going OT:  the above is actually influenced by some posts I got on another<BR>
 >> list, on the topic of gun control!  Apparently, the civil rights movement<BR>
 >> in the US, one of the classic "nonviolent" movements, was defended by a<BR>
 >> very large proportion of its members possessing guns.  This resulting in<BR>
 >> the white hood brigade suffering some very embarrassing setbacks....  <BR>
 ><BR>
 > What incident was that?  I can only think of that incident in South<BR>
 > Carolina in '82 ('83?) where the guns were distributed overwhelmingly<BR>
 > otherwise.<BR>
 <BR>
 Most such "incidents" were purely local. Things like the local KKK boys<BR>
 getting drunk and deciding to "scare the niggers" by burning a cross on<BR>
 someone's lawn, or at the local black church (or even burning the<BR>
 church). Some sympathetic white would anonymously call the target(s)<BR>
 and warn them. So the white hood brigade shows up and run into some<BR>
 blacks, armed with shotguns (hard to take away when they use them to<BR>
 hunt for food!). <BR>
 <BR>
 In one case I heard of, the blacks waited until the KKK goons got out<BR>
 of the cars and then (from cover) blew the hell out of the *cars*.<BR>
 After all, they didn't want to get in trouble for shooting a white man.<BR>
 <BR>
 The cars that were still drivable got packed full of KKK members in<BR>
 full (panicked) retreat. And the ones that weren't drivable got towed<BR>
 away later as abandoned. And by mutual, unspoken agreement, the blacks<BR>
 didn't ask any questions about who owned the cars, and the law didn't<BR>
 ask any questions about how they came to be shot up. <BR>
 <BR>
 You have to keep in mind that while *most* Southerners thought that<BR>
 blacks were "inferior" they *didn't* approve of KKK tactics such as<BR>
 shootings, burnings, hangings and mutilations. So when the KKK got<BR>
 whupped in one of these confrontations, most of the locals would think<BR>
 "serves 'em right" as long as the blacks didn't get "uppity" because of<BR>
 it.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The book was "Negros with Guns", a paperback written by the leader of a <BR>
localised  black defense force. I found a copy in the university library <BR>
during undergrad and did a short report [now lost]. I cannot recall his name, <BR>
and the book was old, the U had put those cardboard covers on it to keep it <BR>
going.<BR>
The gist was that he was a former Marine who rose to the local NAACP <BR>
leadership, he also led the local black gun club. The NRA provided training <BR>
and M1s [WWII 30-06 semi auto 8 shot rifles], and he purchsed old nazi stuff <BR>
to fill out the ranks. The book has some cool tales of using rifles to drive <BR>
off white forces drive-by attacks, he trained his defense troops to judge <BR>
their fire by watching for the flashes when the rounds hit the cars. They <BR>
also used rifle fire to drive off a small plane which they had been warned <BR>
was on a bombing mission against their headquarters house. They later held a <BR>
white couple for either racial dislike of whites or to save their lives, and <BR>
the Feds got involved, decided that the nazi rifles meant they were bad <BR>
people, and the leader was forced to flee to Cuba. Along the way the national <BR>
NAACP decided that guns and defending yourself was bad and booted him out, <BR>
the locals voted him back in. The usual thing that happens to a disarmed <BR>
people after a conflict happened after the black forces were broken up. Try <BR>
to find a copy if you want to learn about how to defend an oppressed people, <BR>
if you can read past his pro-commie anti-US political views<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:07:16 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mistranslating the Ten Commandments (was Re: Silly Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
At 06:06 pm 12/17/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:40:23 -0500 (EST), Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
>wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>In the interests of further confusing things, I have to interject<BR>
this tidbit:<BR>
><BR>
>>The Torah (Old Testament) has a least one MAJOR change in it during<BR>
the <BR>
>>translation process (Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English in the<BR>
King James <BR>
>>Bible). In the ten Commandments, it is "Thou shall not MURDER",<BR>
which in the <BR>
>>King James Bible is "Thou shall not kill". I call this major as it<BR>
encourages <BR>
>>pacifism (which I don't believe in - see the 2nd Amem. flamewar).<BR>
Is there <BR>
>>any other changes that is pertinent to the Ark?<BR>
><BR>
>Relevance to the Ark uncertain in context, but...<BR>
><BR>
>"Thou shalt not steal" should have been translated as "Thou shalt<BR>
>not kidnap", and "Thou shalt not covet..." should have been "Thou<BR>
>shalt not steal..."<BR>
<BR>
	Interesting ... never heard this one. Any reason it hasn't been<BR>
corrected in any of the umpteen updated and redone translations since<BR>
KJ? My copy of the NRSV still has it steal/covet ...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav ... what if the first translation of the Warrant of<BR>
Restoration into planet A's native language was mistranslated ... and<BR>
the Imperium liked the mistranslation better, so they never corrected<BR>
it. How would planet A react when they discover they're getting<BR>
screwed (more than other worlds)?<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and<BR>
movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see random<BR>
acts of<BR>
situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:25:49 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > This discussion points out one of the weaker points in "Traveller<BR>
> > sociology" -- the assumption that the Vilani, Zhodani, etc. all lack the<BR>
> > genetic, phenotypical, linguistic, and cultural diversity of the Solomani,<BR>
> > because small numbers were transplanted while the Solomani had a somehow<BR>
> > fuller gene pool to draw on. This is totally indefensible on a linguistic<BR>
> > and cultural ground, I'm willing to fight to the bitter end; on the<BR>
> > genetic and biological side, I'll defer to more versed phys anthro types<BR>
> > here, but from what I understand there's no real support for that either.<BR>
> <BR>
> Since they are all descended from a more limited gene pool, the odds<BR>
> *do* favor loss of any number of genes purely thru genetic drift.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't current research (which I only read patchily, I admit) suggest<BR>
that the "founding population" that contributed to the contemporary human<BR>
population was also quite small, not more 10,000 or so?  This is in the<BR>
same range as the "canonical" numbers of transplaned proto-Zhodani, for<BR>
example.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:35:45 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sliders (was Re: Ethnic Confusions)<BR>
<BR>
The Kromaggs seem to have been a parallel evolution along with us.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
> Which brings up an interesting conjecture. Not sure if this is off-topic.<BR>
> For anyone who watches Sliders, do the Kromaggs represent an evolved homo<BR>
> erectus or something else?  Could it also mean that at least one of the<BR>
> human minor races could have evolved into something similar?<BR>
><BR>
> This is, of course, assuming that not all forty or so human minor races<BR>
have<BR>
> been catalogued in the OTU. If they have, well, IMO it wouldn't be too<BR>
hard<BR>
> for a ref to come up with some stats.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Josh<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:17:13 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 04:54 pm 12/17/99 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Ok, with *that* description I remember it. I agree, it was *just*<BR>
the<BR>
>>> serial number.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Which means it was discovered when the warehouse changed hands<BR>
and a<BR>
>>> *complete* inventory was done. Here's a crate with an unreadable<BR>
serial<BR>
>>> number. And the list of items has one item not checked off. <BR>
>><BR>
>> And just when will the United States government entity in charge<BR>
of that<BR>
>> facility do a *complete* inventory?  <BR>
><BR>
>> It probably does a periodic audit, but a complete inventory will<BR>
only<BR>
>> take place if it's found necessary to go to the trouble and<BR>
expense,<BR>
>> like if evidence of pilfering or other misappropriation has<BR>
occurred<BR>
>> (like the Smithsonian's National Gallery of Art found a few years<BR>
ago).<BR>
><BR>
>As I noted, a *complete* inventory will almost certainly take place<BR>
>when the facility gets turned over to another entity. Not<BR>
necessarily<BR>
>*every* time responsibility changes hands, as even some bureaucrats<BR>
are<BR>
>too trusting for their own good. But sooner or later...<BR>
<BR>
	Yeah, and having seen some of these inventories, there's going to be<BR>
at least 20% of the items on the paperwork missing, and 10% of the<BR>
items on hand won't be listed at all ... you go through a paper<BR>
exercise (Report of Survey) on the items you can't quickly find and<BR>
wind up just adjusting the paperwork ...<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and<BR>
movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see random<BR>
acts of<BR>
situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:18:23 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
At 08:38 pm 12/17/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>On 12/17/1999 20:05, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> At 03:01 PM 12/17/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>>> I've written a space combat game the history of which has<BR>
combined USA and<BR>
>>> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal<BR>
about<BR>
>>> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect<BR>
from<BR>
>>> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> I presume there was an invasion?  I can't see it happening<BR>
>> voluntarily...  Most Canadians are very quick to say they aren't<BR>
Americans....<BR>
><BR>
>Unless sometime in the 21st century, the Parti Quebecois actually<BR>
succeeds<BR>
>in their separation referendum. The Maritimes, cut off from the rest<BR>
of<BR>
>Canada and with a terrible economic situation, petition to join the<BR>
USA, as<BR>
>do the western provinces....<BR>
<BR>
	I actually heard a rumor that, the first time this referendum came<BR>
up, some of the Canadian provinces quietly inquired of the US State<BR>
Department what the procedure would be ... just in case.<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and<BR>
movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see random<BR>
acts of<BR>
situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1525<BR>
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